Comments on: Saddleback Magic and Willow Creek Voodoo

By: Fred Johnston

Fred Johnston — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 20:21:05 +0000

yup, i agree… it’s like the band scene… you gotta be BIG to be good and accepted…. my son is in a band with a bunch of great guys, and it’s sure an uphill battle (like i mean YEARS of uphill)…

Their website is www.aftertheanthems.com if anyone wants to take a look (and maybe an invite)… they’re just FINALLY getting played on the local Christian radio.

By: Andy

Andy — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 01:45:55 +0000

Your comments are applicable to most of us at one time or another. I believe one reason the “big dogs” are used so much is because they have the budgets to market their material. They can market easily through publishers, conferences, etc. while the little guys content may be equal or even better, but the quality of marketing and production is lacking (due to finances.)

Thanks for causing thought.

By: -kp-

-kp- — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:21:23 +0000

By the way, now that I think about it, it well may not have been 40 hours per week that the guy spent on study. I know he spent time as a pastor because I would have raised the objection to Shane when he told the story. Maybe it was 20 or 25 hours devoted to study. But in any case, suppose a pastor could side-step strictly administrative business - which is not unrealistic - and could manage both pastoral care and the kind of intense study necessary for original biblical-theological engagement. Wouldn’t that be a good approach?

By: -kp-

-kp- — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:18:31 +0000

So much for working on a thesis about “Karl Barth, Pastoral Theologian,” or, “Lesslie Newbigin, Pastoral Theologian”….

I would agree that there has to be balance. But canned stuff? Really?

By: Andrew

Andrew — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:10:32 +0000

KP, honestly I’m of the opinion that it would be more destructive for a church to have its pastor spending 40 hours creating curriculum and crafting sermons than using canned stuff from elsewhere. There needs to be a careful balance between the teaching/preaching ministry with the pastoral nature of caring for people in the church. Let’s keep that in perspective. A pastor who spends 40 hours behind books in the office, I’d suggest, has stopped being a pastor.

By: Chris TerryNelson

Chris TerryNelson — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:02:14 +0000

That’s encouraging to hear, KP. Thanks for the story.

By: Drew

Drew — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:22:50 +0000

I do have ideas, but based almost entirely on learning objectives. Do you think that assessing learning can be a means to assess spiritual growth? I think that there are ways, but I have not thought about it at length. These are really raw thoughts at this point, but issues worth pursuing at some practical level.

By: -kp-

-kp- — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:12:41 +0000

Any suggestions for how we go about strategic and systematic evaluation?

I know it isn’t ideal, but have any churches used confidential reporting, like that used in a university setting? That might get at least marginally better responses than the popular waddya-think approach.

***

Chris, a great point (original) curriculum. Where do we think Saddleback/Hybels got their stuff in the first place? Shane Berg once told me the story of a good friend of his, who had studied for a year-long fellowship at Cambridge following seminary, but who wanted to take a pastorate. The session of a tiny church in rural California was shocked to find him as extremely interested in taking their call. His only condition: he would do NO administrative work, and would devote all of his time (at LEAST 40 hours per week) to creating original Bible study curriculum, to be used in the pulpit and in the classroom. Shane said that so far it’s been working very well. The church runs itself (waddya know?) and the pastor does exegesis in original languages and preaches rich, theological sermons.

By: Neal Locke

Neal Locke — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:18:35 +0000

It doesn’t stop at megachurches either. This is my biggest fear for the Emerging Church conversation, which (IMHO) is otherwise refreshing and meaningful. But I buy every single Emergent book that comes out in the hopes that the “emergent voodoo” will rub off on me.

Perhaps the difference is that the “totem” of megachurch curriculum represents their underlying value of size and growth, while the “totem” of Emergent books represents an underlying value of “change.”

And both are marketable products, in a very market-happy culture.

By: Andrew

Andrew — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:16:28 +0000

You make a good point, Drew. Assessment is severely lacking when it comes to curriculum and teaching in the church. I think a lot of the problem is we have no idea how to assess and measure beyond the “what did you think” kinds of questions. I’ve seen some theological assessment happen here and there, but measuring spiritual growth and impact is a slippery business. Any suggestions for how we go about strategic and systematic evaluation?